#1 2019-07-21 04:15:09

Wan Hung Lao
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Registered: 2019-07-21
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E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

I'm hoping to run my own e-mail server to get away from the big guys but the lack of well known IPv4 SMTP port is a bit of a bugger. Unfortunately, whoever designed MX records wasn't prescient enough to know about NAT. However, by its very design e-mail is a store and forward protocol so a mail server on the public SMTP port would be quite transparent to servers on the internal net. Given a standard server would pretty much do the job and shared hosting offers something equivalent, I'm surprised this isn't available on LES. Similarly, other services work well behind application gateways e.g. DNS but with others you just need to be a bit more creative like entering, [email protected] rather than username to forward to the service behind the NAT.

Anyway my request is for SMTP and DNS forwarders for incoming Pv4 traffic only 6 years too late. Alternatively, some shared hosting functional equivalent such as mail delivery directly to one or more files in the case of email would suit me just fine. I don't necessarily need to or want to control every aspect of the service.I suppose some might but I suppose efficiency is also an important consideration.

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#2 2019-07-21 04:18:06

WSS
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Probably never going to happen, because it's rife for abuse.

Pay the $3.50/mo for a Vultr instance, or find another cheap provider.


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#3 2019-07-21 04:46:50

Wan Hung Lao
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

I don't see what the problem is. Is it really that different from HAProxy in terms of being able to be abused? Our sheep shearers must already run their own robust mail infrastructure. If shared hosting providers can manage to offer this, it can hardly be a problem for our guys.

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#4 2019-07-21 08:07:02

mikho
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

If you want a mail only solution, use MXRoute.

Using HAProxy and DNS requests wont work as how the protocol is built.
Same thing goes for mail, it would need a different kind of proxy and I’m not sure that either Ant or me wants to out in the time and money to develop something like that.

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#5 2019-07-21 10:14:11

Wan Hung Lao
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

I don't think any new software needs to be developed, standard mail server and dns forwarder software should suffice to allow those services to bypass the NAT. The tricky bit would be automation of the configuration management. I appreciate there are time and financial constraints but still surprised that it is missing from the offering. Was it ever considered?

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#6 2019-07-21 10:47:09

WSS
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

The answer remains "No".


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#7 2019-07-21 12:48:35

Wan Hung Lao
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Which locations do you offer?

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#8 2019-07-21 15:45:08

AnthonySmith
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Nope, not interested in this feature.


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#9 2019-07-21 18:45:52

mikho
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Wan Hung Lao wrote:

The tricky bit would be automation of the configuration management. I appreciate there are time and financial constraints but still surprised that it is missing from the offering. Was it ever considered?


The tricky part is what is holding it back. And Because of it being tricky, it was never considered.

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#10 2019-07-23 05:46:07

Wan Hung Lao
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Thanks. If somebody, ahem, implemented a complete self-maintaining solution could it be offered? Or is increasing the scope of the offerings simply not realistic? Is there any in principle objection to incoming e-mail being double handled, once on the host os or a dedicated container and then another time in the client container?

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#11 2019-07-23 12:24:20

AnthonySmith
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Give me the technical brief on how you plan to make it self maintaining in the context of offering self managed containers within a solusvm and or virtualizor automated environment and I will consider your proposal.

You will need to include:

1. Why it will not generate any support requirements.
2. What you plan to do about PTR/rDNS.
3. How to combat this being used as a very cheap spam service.
4. How to combat user error in advance generating blacklist reports through bad local configurations.


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#12 2019-07-24 08:04:16

Wan Hung Lao
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

AnthonySmith wrote:

Give me the technical brief on how you plan to make it self maintaining in the context of offering self managed containers within a solusvm and or virtualizor automated environment and I will consider your proposal..

At the moment this is just theoretical so I or 'someone' can go more into much more depth when they seriously resolve to move forward, but for now:

You will need to include:

1. Why it will not generate any support requirements.

It will work. :-) The implementer will stick around to provide support. Support for user configuration will be provided for the control panel.

2. What you plan to do about PTR/rDNS.

Nothing. This solution is for receiving mail only. No guarantees are offered as whether sent mail will not be treated as spam, just as there is no guarantee now.

3. How to combat this being used as a very cheap spam service.

Nothing more than what is done now. This is a receive only solution. Does LES block outgoing connections to the well known SMTP and SMTP/TLS ports? Perhaps it should unless the destination is known to be one that requires authentication.

4. How to combat user error in advance generating blacklist reports through bad local configurations.

As above.

Last edited by Wan Hung Lao (2019-07-26 11:04:17)

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#13 2019-09-06 16:27:03

laibsch
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Registered: 2016-09-18
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

I find this to be an interesting idea.

Let me repeat the question from Wan Hung Lao: What is the potential for abuse here?  This is only about enabling incoming mail (over IPv4).  Obviously, running your own postfix on IPv6 is already an option but some SMTP servers out there are IPv4-only unfortunately.  I'd appreciate some enlightenment, here.

BTW, I am willing to put some work into making this a reality.  This looks like it could be fairly easily done with postfix.

Last edited by laibsch (2019-09-06 16:28:39)

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#14 2019-09-08 15:17:15

WSS
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Nobody's interested in doing so, because of the time required, and despite the fact this is a 'no support' service, there would be no end of issues for people complaining about delivery.  Having 50,000 SPF records on a single IP address will probably get you vetted from larger services, too.

Anthony was basically saying "Give me a complete solution, and I'll consider it."   If that happens, I want the WHMCS replacement that goes with it.


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#15 2019-09-08 18:08:16

AnthonySmith
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

WSS wrote:

Nobody's interested in doing so, because of the time required, and despite the fact this is a 'no support' service, there would be no end of issues for people complaining about delivery.  Having 50,000 SPF records on a single IP address will probably get you vetted from larger services, too.

Anthony was basically saying "Give me a complete solution, and I'll consider it."   If that happens, I want the WHMCS replacement that goes with it.

This.


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#16 2019-09-11 11:24:50

laibsch
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

I am still not sure we are all talking about the same thing here and before we do, any talk of implementation issues seems premature to me.

For example, how would SPF come into play?  AFAIU, this only became relevant if users were given access to an *outgoing* MX.  We are talking about incoming e-mail, a backup MX that would accept mail for [email protected] and forward it to [email protected] (where I read my e-mail).  Store-and-forward.  I can then set the IPv4 address of the VPS as an MX for mydomain.com in DNS.  I think that is what Wan Hung Lao and I are discussing, doesn't seem to me that WSS and Anthony are talking about the same thing, or are you?

PS: FWIW, I consider SPF broken by design and don't use it, anyhow.

Last edited by laibsch (2019-09-11 11:28:54)

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#17 2019-09-12 05:58:30

mikho
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

If you only want something that forwards from one domain to another email.
Use mailgun
https://www.mailgun.com/

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#18 2019-09-12 13:25:20

laibsch
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Posts: 21

Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Thanks, Mikho.

But alas, you also seem to assume I want to send e-mail (which is what mailgun.com does, it's a mass-mailer).  We want to *receive* e-mail (by way of a backup MX).  Is that so hard to understand?

Last edited by laibsch (2019-09-12 13:38:21)

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#19 2019-09-12 15:23:29

mikho
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

laibsch wrote:

Thanks, Mikho.

But alas, you also seem to assume I want to send e-mail (which is what mailgun.com does, it's a mass-mailer).  We want to *receive* e-mail (by way of a backup MX).  Is that so hard to understand?


You can also use it to receive email.
I do it.

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#20 2019-09-12 16:21:16

AnthonySmith
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

laibsch wrote:

Thanks, Mikho.

But alas, you also seem to assume I want to send e-mail (which is what mailgun.com does, it's a mass-mailer).  We want to *receive* e-mail (by way of a backup MX).  Is that so hard to understand?

Automate it, integrate it, I will take a look at it.


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#21 2019-09-12 21:06:23

skorous
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

Maybe I'm being dumb but isn't store-and-forward *sending* email?

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#22 2019-09-12 23:29:36

WSS
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Registered: 2016-12-22
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Re: E-mail, DNS and other IPv4 application gateways (forwarders)

skorous wrote:

Maybe I'm being dumb but isn't store-and-forward *sending* email?

Pretty much, yeah.

Also, Hi!


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